Fighting Spirit

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

Author	Comment
resurrection wolf	Fighting Spirit	Lead	[-]
Posts: 932 (10/08/07 01:01:51) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None OK, this started as a dream of the night 3-4 October 2007 Set in the latter stages of an alternate history Second World War, this sees the Allied armies, by now led almost completely by the USA, deep into the Soviet Union defeating Nazi Germany's ally in the conflict In the previous stages of the war, Nazi Germany has been defeated, but in earlier fighting with the USSR a large number of US army officers have been captured, including a top general. In the dream this fellow was a mixture of Eisenhower and Jean-Luc Picard, but obviously only the former makes sense ! So, ni a Russian town, Eisenhower sits down for his evening meal with his fellow captives, treated reasonably well by the Soviets, roomed altogether in one dormitory but not in gulag conditions Patton's army however has caught everybody by surprise, thrusting deep and ahead of the rest of the US infrastructure. Its obvious to the Soviet camp guards that the USSR is defeated, news from the rear has stopped and they fear being completely cut off by the American advance. Most flee, others decide to stay and make peace with the Americans One lad, either in his late teens or just out of them, and a native of the town rather than an employee of the camp, has other ideas. He doesn't accept the inevitable defeat of his homeland, and views his fellows as cowards and traitors. He hides in the brush beside the town, armed with an old revolver, quite possibly a family heirloom or maybe his father's from a period of service in the Red Army. Whatever, his parents are not around anymore, it is just him and his sister, a near contemporary if slightly younger, an chestnut-haired serious-faced girl who would perhaps have been beautiful in other circumstances Patton approaches the town, and the remaining camp guards set their prisoners free, enabling Eisenhower to receive his rescuer. As this is going on, the Russian lad creeps up ready to shoot them both. Knowing that this will bring drastic retribution down upon the town, especially if Patton survives and is in charge, his sister argues with him, attempting to get him to put their interests ahead of the notional ones of the country. He turns away to fire, and she draws a small pistol and shoots him in the side. He is a tough one, him, and simlpy squeezes the bullet out of his flesh, apparently otherwise unwounded by the action. His sister is now reduced to helpless spectator status, her one chance to change things gone. He doesn't even bother with her, a cold focus not allowing him to ponder on the fact that his sister just shot him. But his chance has gone for the moment, the distraction of briefly being shot, however ineptly, has allowed Eisenhower and Patton to retire to the camp's mess, where the former guards are now acting as servants, bringing them the best meal they are to muster up Without, the lad bides his time, watched fearfully by his sister as darkness falls... - - - Best Regards Gery Wolf
resurrection wolf	Considerations 1	#1	[-]
Posts: 932 (10/08/07 01:03:06) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Let's see if we can make sense of this ! There are 2 possibilities -1- Hitler is assassinated in later mid 1940, and his successor inherits both a Western Europe cowed under Nazi occupation and an alliance with the USSR. The Berlin conference with the Soviet leadership in November 1940 goes ahead with full commitment, and the leader weak ni his position makes concessions to Soviet interests in the Balkans, that both tie the USSR and Germany closer together and make it impossible for Germany to contemplate an invasion of the USSR, which with Hitler's demise is not a priority anymore anyway. -2- The POD of Hitler's assassination is pushed further back, and his successor makes personal visits to Moscow etc, thus making Britain and France fear that the USSR will soon be physically backing Nazi Germany and leading to their joint attack on Baku, over-flying Turkish airspace. This probably also ties in with the Soviet-Finnish Winter War and leads to a 1940 that dawns with Germany and the USSR in military alliance against Britain and France. Number 2 is more difficult to quantify but would make for a more divergent war and thus for better potential of it eventually developing as the dream suggests One could see Allied landings at the Dardanelles, a march up the Balkans into the Soviet sphere, at the same time as US naval forces entering the Black Sea... This could well come AFTER the defeat of Nazi Germany, or whilst that state is in its death throes but the USSR is more or less undamaged. Maybe we could see Byrne succeed FDR in 1944 Interestingly, could Italy have stayed neutral in a -2- timeline ? Britain would be under permanent siege if we assume that Germany cannot successfully invade, alternatively they may make peace German energies would be in the Middle East, assuring themselves oil reserves etc and expanding a sphere of influence there This would probably benefit from an ongoing war with Britain, if not even France And what of Japan ? Their non-aggression pact with the USSR more or less compliments the Nazi-Soviet pact and kills the anti-comintern pact as a politically-aimed entity Japan's actions presumably depend on Germany's successes in Europe, against Britain but especially against France as French Indo-China was where the Southern strategy starterd - - - We could have a wildly divergent WW2 out of this But then need to extend it so that the USA is invading the USSR... Best Regards Grey Wolf
resurrection wolf	Considerations 2	#2	[-]
Posts: 932 (10/08/07 01:03:36) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Personalities ?! Well, the obvious one is who succeeds Hitler and one supposes that the answer is Goering The war is already on by this stage, and Goering's perceived friendliness in the West will be irrelevant It could mean that Britain agrees an Amiens-like truce after the Fall of France, but that this breaks down later following German aggression in the Middle East Goering would presumably be OK with Hess, but would have Himmler and Heydrich as his main rivals within the Nazi power structure, and one presumes he would pay more attention to them since they took some of his beloved police elements away from him Who would succeed Goering as head of the Luftwaffe ? Milch would be a good idea, or that chap who died ? There could therefore be tension here between the new Fuhrer, who is the ex-Head, and the new Head who has ideas of his own in different strategic and tactical directions than what Goering favoured What of the Kriegsmarine ? It could depend on the type of war that develops, but one assumes that after Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin nothing new of any size would be completed. The Seydlitz and Lutzow, heavy cruisers, would probably still go to the USSR If Halifax rather than Churchill gets the nod as PM in 1940, then we may well not see the close relationship with the USA as per historical, which would allow for Britain's acceptance of an Armstice when France falls, and then later when Britain's position in the world is clearly threatened by German actions in the Middle East, Halifax could then be overthrown for Churchill FDR gets his 3rd term in 1940 but world events leave the USA playing catch-up and by 1944 he is seen as too old or too ill, and in a heated contest Byrne gets the Democratic nomination and wins Byrne is eager to ally alongside Churchill's Britain and see a united front against the Nazi-Soviet alliance. Turkey will have been brow-beaten into joining the Pact, especially easy if the Anglo-French air raid on Baku is part of the elongated POD here With Rashid Ali in Iraq, this sees Germany with friendly countries in the jumping-off places, and able to invade Persia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and also the Levant, where Britain and France's mandates are up for grabs. Suez and Egypt would become key here, attacked from the East Is there any chance of resurrecting the Caliphate ? True, the claimant is also the Ottoman claimant, but if he were allowed to exercise authority from either Jerusalem or Damascus, could this work ? A Nazi-Soviet puppet Caliph ? What of Egypt ? There are two rival lines for the kingship that could be played with, or maybe the extant king could be persuaded to see more glory in breaking free of the British protectorate ? Maybe a revolution to this end is what tips the balance, and sees Halifax overthrown for Churchill. Palestine up to this point could have been in some form of international mediation Turkey would be happy to get Cyprus back and also be confirmed in the area if reacquired from French Syria recently Could there be a situation where the Soviets are supplying the Japanese with oil as allies ? Do they have the Siberian capability for this at this period ? Nuclear weapons are always a pain in the arse where WW2 scenarios are concerned as they cannot, unfortunately, be forgotten... Maybe Goering seems a more 'reasonable' person and the USA does not see him as a fanatic able to do unspeakable things if he gets them, so does not push its own programme as it did in OTL ? With Milch as head of the Luftwaffe, could Germany develop a meaningful distance bombing capability, perhaps initially aimed at being for the Middle East and trans-Mediterranean but useful once the Allies come together to oppose the Nazi-Soviets ? Also could there be a more centrally-controlled jet fighter programme ? OTL Hitler placed that ban on research projects that would not yield quick results, but would Goering lift this early for the Luftwaffe ? This could well see the Heinkel jet moved into production, as well as the first helicopters enter mass production as twice in OTL the optimum moment was denied them to do this One could thus see, long-distance bombers, jet fighters, frontline helicopters, all debuted on the Middle East front Best Regards Grey Wolf
resurrection wolf	Considerations 3	#3	[-]
Posts: 932 (10/08/07 01:04:02) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Stalin looks unassailable in the Soviet Union and one could probably say for the same period the same kind of thing for Molotov and Beria Army posts are a lot more complicated ! I guess there would not be the same type of fall-out during 1940 if Hitler is long dead and Goering in charge, and Stalin would trust more those he appointed in the wake of the Finnish war Would Zhukov have fought the battle with Japan ? One assumes so, as it falls before the POD, so he would be a rising star but without the OTL potential of where exactly to rise to Zhukov would probably be an active army commander for the Soviet invasion of Persia, that kind of thing, probably rising to overall command of the Middle East theatre He could well get cut off there in 'The Collapse' and thus the US armies that thrust into the Soviet Union do not have him to deal with as an adversary One could see the USA fulfilling Stalin's paranoia about a Black Sea underbelly, by largely ignoring the fighting in the Middle East and going for the Thrace-Dardanelles-BlackSea option Perhaps Eisenhower is captured by Zhukov in the Middle East as the US tried out raw units with lots of good equipment there, or perhaps he is captured by Soviet units helping the defence of Nazi Germany before the final fall of Berlin ? One could imagine that after the fall of Berlin, President Byrne announces surrender terms that demand the disestablishment of Communism etc and thus forces Stalin to fight on after the fall of his ally And what of Japan in the Pacific at this time ? Has the slower pace to events in Europe allowed the USA to fight on 3 effective fronts at once, or has Japan come and gone as a threat already ? The exact nature would depend on -1- the knock-ons from a different war in Europe -2- whether the USSR can meet Japan's fuel needs, even in the short-run Best Regards Grey Wolf
resurrection wolf	Considerations 4	#4	[-]
Posts: 932 (10/08/07 01:04:48) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What can we do with people like Rommel ? If OTL's Ghost Division jaunt is not able to happen...? I guess it depends on how Goering handles the invasion of France ? Will he have the vision of Hitler to go for the unconventional knock-out ? And if he does not, then how does a German victory (necessary for this timeline) pan out ? Germany would be able to focus longer and fuller upon Britain with no imminent Barbarossa Goering might well be able to see the wood not the trees and go after the RAF infrastructure Alternatively because of Goering's pledge about no RAF raids on German cities or call him some rude name He may insist on massive retaliatory Blitzes but Milch may well dissuade him from this as a policy, rather focus on it as a one-off or as a tit-for-tat thing Some rather more obscure in OTL generals could rise here, ones who are steady but solid, who in a different French invasion scenario win out in the end These would then be the ones in charge of the initial Middle East strategy Only after things begin to go wrong would others get called in - Rommel could thus have his day after Churchill brings Britain back into the war over Egypt If Churchill is only at the Admiralty and Halifax replaces Chamberlain, would we see the same Anglo-French commitment to Norway ? And if not, would we see the German invasion ? Maybe Goering's Nazi Germany invades Denmark but not Norway This would allow for more of the Kriegsmarine to survive This could have important longer-term effects After the Fall of France, Britain agrees an Armstice under Halifax Germany could well send naval forces into the Med - maybe led by the Blucher - perhaps inc the OTL-lost LCs and DDs Maybe with Goering in charge, the mid 1940 extension treaty would not demand such harsh things of Germany as handing over the incompleted Seydlitz and Lutzow, and perhaps these are completed as heavy cruisers for the KM Best Regards Grey Wolf
resurrection wolf	Considerations 5	#5	[-]
Posts: 932 (10/08/07 01:05:24) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The question of Italy could be a vital one Could Mussolini pull a Franco and keep Italy out of the conflict ? Or would German adventures in the Middle East lead to Italian involvement ? If they were not involved previous to this, because the Fall of France takes longer and is a lot harder Then Britain won't be invading Eritrea, Abyssinia and Italian Somaliland And thus not Libya - - - In many respects having a very different WW2 is a GOOD aim Hopefully readers and useful people will have some POSITIVE ideas and advice So ??? Best Regards Grey Wolf
TomB1	More weird dreams	#6	[-]
Posts: 2777 (10/10/07 18:45:59) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Interesting stuff. Why doesn't the sound of the sister shooting her would be assassin brother not cause the guards to be alerted?
resurrection wolf	Re: More weird dreams	#7	[-]
Posts: 932 (10/11/07 01:03:17) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Because sound travels differently in dreams ? Or because there's so much noise from the camp anyway, what with big army transport trucks coming ? Or perhaps because its one of those little guns it goes POP more than BANG ? Thanks for reading and commenting We're off the postal strike for a few days so we'll see if any mail gets through.... Best Regards Grey Wolf
TomB1	Re: Considerations 1	#8	[-]
Posts: 2777 (10/13/07 09:26:00) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In regards to option 2 an argument can be made that Hitler's successor might not embrace the Manstein plan if which case the German blitzkrieg is underwhelming.
TomB1	Re: Considerations 2	#9	[-]
Posts: 2777 (10/16/07 18:01:53) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Goering is by far the leading candidate to replace Hitler. Hess would marginalized in a largely ceremonial role. Himmler is tad timid and the SS is not as powerful as it would've become. The Heer would pressure Goering into limiting the size of the SS. Milch is the likely successor at Luftwaffe but Fuhrer Goering would still impose his whimsy du jour. Milch would've tried to not use Messerschmitt and Junkers as much but again Goering may override him. Hitler was something of an ascetic Goering was an Uberhedonist. He might try to turn Berlin into one big pleasure dome.

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

Fighting Spirit

Fighting Spirit

Quick Reply