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resurrection wolf	Southern Glory, American Fury		Lead	[-]
Posts: 945 08/12/09 01:26:37 ezOP	Tags : None The War of Southern Independence 1861-1865 *Introduction* The world of history does not consist of one POD followed by another POD followed by another POD. There are not only large decisions that change things, but many smaller ones. A battle lost could be won, but still be insignificant in itself. Only the later turn of the campaign would show one a determination from that beginning. Thus, a 1961 POD for what we know as the "American Civil War" need not have won the war in an instant, or with a single stroke, but have set in motion a different, and radically so, set of campaigns. Despite what the authors of "What If" seem to assume, alternate history is not controlled by a single major POD, or in the writing of alternate history in the choice between different major PODs. Battles insignificant in themselves, objectives of campaign that would neither win nor lose the war, the vagaries of fortune, the appointment of commanders - none of these would win or lose the war in themselves, but any of them could set in motion a longer series of events which would culminate in an outcome different overall from reality The Grand Sweep of Things Washington falls, and Britain and France recognise Confederate independence. Later naval actions by the Union leads to a crisis where the European powers decide jointly upon active interference in order to force the North to the negotiating table. Anglo-French naval, land, and logistical assets are dedicated to the war effort, though France is paying as much attention to Mexico as to further North, something that can be better accomplished with the assistance of the CSA, and by the distraction of European governments in the war in the North. Eventually Philadelphia is brought under siege and the Union surrenders. Not only is the CSA recognised but Maryland and Kentucky are ceded as well, whilst the Territories of New Mexico, Arizona and Oklahoma are also let go. The Aftermath The Union is riven by internal dissent, and sees the secession of the Old North-West into a Confederacy of its own, that soon seeks alliance with the Confederacy California declares independence amidst all this CSA veterans are taken into French employ and help stabilise Salvador Iturbide on the Mexican throne after the death of Maximilian Britain is making moves into the Oregon Territory, now no longer contiguous with the Union, whilst at the same intriguing within California CSA leaders are desperate for an Eastern coastline and pressurise France to work co-operatively with Britain over California. Soon, a CSA-French army is attacking the independent republic from one side, forcing the British to belatedly accept the CSA's prior claims and to agree that it is acting in their interests In turn, Richmond recognises Britain's dominion over all of the original Oregon Territory The NW Confederacy ends up with residual rights to the territories East of the Rockies Europe With France so thoroughly committed in N America, Bismarck does not agree that (N) German forces should stop short of Vienna, and the denouement to the Austro-Prussian War is a German assault upon the Habsburg capital. Napoleon III attempts to demand that the newly victorious Prussians restore the Habsburg dominions, but Bismarck is aware that the opportunity may only come once. France dare not go to war with its armies already overstretched on the other side of the Atlantic, and Britain is heavily over-committed also. Instead, the Prussian Chancellor acts to transform his victory into an overwhelming one. A new German Empire is to be born, including those German states defeated in the war as sovereign entities, and including Austria as a kingdom within it. The Crown Prince is won over to the glory of this idea, and manages to get the reluctant agreement of the recalcitrant Wilhelm I Hungarian independence is agreed, whilst Russia is bought off with protectorate status over Galicia and Krakow Britain and France force a European Congress to discuss these arrangements, but the only changes agreed are that the Southern Tryol and parts of the Trentino should go to Italy, a country now greatly enlarged after acquiring Venetia in Prussia's gift at the end of the war The Papal States, such as they are (reduced to the area of Rome) remain inviolate, and Italy continues to be ruled from Turin The Spanish Crisis Spain's attempt to reabsorb Santo Domingo into its empire, and the costly fiasco of the Guano War fought against Peru, have left Queen Isabella's government exposed. The beginnings of a Cuban Uprising, and the clear interest of France in events going on there further alarm the opposition in Madrid, and a military coup is launched By this time, British rule across Oregon is being accepted, and a system of governance imposed, whilst some British units remain in California at CSA request and expense. France similarly has been able to downgrade its numerical involvement in Mexico, paying instead for veteran CSA units to perform services there, and able to rotate its elite units between Europe and Mexico. Some French units remain in California, whilst instructors and much logisitical capital remain within the CSA 1868 and the War of the Triple Alliance is well underway, a series of alarmist reports out of Paraguay worrying European governments, especially Britain, that their nationals are in serious danger from an increasing paranoid Lopez regime. The generals in Madrid search for a monarch to replace the unlamented Isabella, a debauched woman whose cousin-husband is unlikely to be the father of many, if any, of her children. They settle on a Southern German prince of the Catholic branch of the Hohenzollern dynasty, and make overtures to him Napoleon III condemns these and speaks of encirclement and veritable acts of war, but Bismarck is concerned that any climbdown on Germany's part would be seen as a sign of the weakness of the new Empire. He is able to play the old Emperor, and make it appear as a matter of honour, and Wilhelm I duly demands that no other nation interfere in the sovereign deliberations of the Spanish, and that French accusations against his country are the height of dishonour Britain has dispatched a sizeable fleet to the River Plate, a fleet that has remained sizeable and in being during and after the war in N America. France has a fleet off Cuba, ostensibly to protect the rights and property of Europeans, but already engaged in smuggling weapons to the rebels, Mexico proving a useful staging post. The generals in Madrid are now very worried that their decision may prove to be a very bad one indeed, and attempt to get the Hohenzollern prince to withdraw, but it has become a matter of honour for him now also, and Bismarck is the first to support him in this Archduke Karl Ludwig brother of Franz Josef, now king of the German Empire sovereign kingdom of Austria, visits Nice on holiday, but disappears from view for two days, during which he has secret talks with the French emperor and his advisors. He later reappears, complaining of flu, and takes a sealed carriage back to Vienna Prince Leopold of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen arrives at Barcelona upon a formerly Austrian man-of-war, now flying the German Empire flag out of Trieste. He takes the train for Madrid, throwing the generals into a quandary. Advisors sent by Bismarck accompany him The announcement from Madrid of a date for the coronation hits Paris like as if delivered of a lightning bolt and its attendant shock. Napoleon III decrees that any such event would be an act of war, and a furious recall of military assets begins. French forces in California and Mexico are even further replaced by CSA ones, with Paris continuing the subsidy to pay for them. The French fleet off Cuba receives marine reinforcements, whilst the main French battle fleet is ordered to concentrate in the North London is in a panic. A victory for either France or Germany within Europe would be a serious upset to the balance of power, but if they are to fight, then Britain has to make a choice of whom to support. Despite strong pro-German elements within the royal family and court, the political governance understand that they have a very good recent history of military, logistical and political co-operation with France, and that a united front against Germany might even be enough to prevent war London issues its own ultimatum in the wake of Napoleon III's, calling for common sense to prevail, and for Leopold to reconsider his acceptance of the Spanish throne Leopold of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen is crowned King of Spain France and Britain declare war upon Spain and the German Empire The Great War 1869-1874 France immediately descends upon Cuba, uniting with rebel forces, and controlling the seas so that the small Spanish naval force already there cannot be reinforced from Spain The British fleet returning from the River Plate lands an assault force upon Puerto Rico The war in Europe takes longer to start, as frontier feeling out of the enemy, and hurried mobilisation and deployment take the place of any major moves in the first few weeks French forces, already mobilised on their return from N America, are able to enter the Basque Country, whilst the French navy blockades the coast in support. A Carlist rising is encouraged, and soon Madrid no longer commands any of the Basque provinces as the Carlist government proclaims Don Juan de Borbon, Count of Montizon as King Juan III of Spain, under the protection of French forces Intense diplomatic activity surrounds Italy, with Germany attempting to transport troops and supplies by sea to Spain via the Adriatic, but Italian patrols increasingly taking on a threatening attitude. Berlin wins over French attempts, by promising support for Italian annexation of Rome, something Napoleon III's government can never consider. In addition further territorial cessions in Gorizia are made to Italy by Austria (German kingdom), under coercion from Berlin Italy declares war on France and Great Britain Hungary declares its neutrality, and purchases a number of warships from Egypt to protect its coastline German-Italian forces penetrate the coastal strip and occupy Nice, but fail to make any breakthrough against French defences in Haute Savoie. Switzerland protests the violation of the recently agreed treaty not to fortify the area, but wise heads prevail and she maintains her neutrality The Empire of Mexico declares war on Spain, Germany and Italy. British army arrives in France to co-ordinate with their French allies The French navy inflicts a crushing defeat upon the Italians and lands a substantial reinforcement at Rome to protect the Papal State Spanish forces fail to make progress in a thrust into the Basque provinces. Carlist risings are now intermittently breaking out across Aragon and Catalonia Don Carlos Maria de Borbon, eldest son and heir of King Juan III enters Barcelona as Carlist forces in the city hand it over to the French navy Portugal declares her neutrality A second British expeditionary force lands at Santander and Bilbao and makes common cause with the Carlist government and their French allies German offensive into Alsace-Lorraine initially breaks against the forts, but a second wave breaks through and is only halted after five days of running battles, by which time the French army has been forced back a fair distance, tho now reinforced by the British The first Winter of the war sees consolidation and entrenchment, the opening of the second campaigning season sees a major Anglo-Carlist thrust from the Basque provinces West into the Asturias, where royalist forces are hit by a rising in their rear as Carlist agitators in Galicia rise up. Madrid is able to bloodily crush this latter occurrence, and to stabilise the Asturian front. By this time, however, much of Aragon and Catalonia is also in Carlist hands, Prince Carlos Maria and his French advisors whipping together the various formations into a second army The French fleet annihilates the Spanish naval forces off Santiago de Cuba as the latter, bereft of supplies, attempt to break out. Puerto Rico surrenders to Great Britain and London appoints a Military Governor for the island German forces restart their offensive on the Western Front, the first attempt breaking on Anglo-French defence lines, the second breaking through to the South-West. Russia announces the outright annexation of its protectorates of Galicia and Krakow The German army attempts to wheel round South of Paris, but a British attack into the Saar, and a French defence in depth results in their stalling and falling back. Carlist armies in Spain join up, and together with their British, and by now somewhat reduced French, allies, advance on Madrid Mexican and CSA forces (the latter operating as Mexican auxilaries) land in Cuba and join up with the rebels. Many CSA officers are disgusted to find themselves supporting a mixed bag of blacks and mulattos, many of whom are escaped slaves but a direct order comes from Richmond to remain in place Madrid falls to the Carlists, with the generals and King Leopold fleeing to Seville Britain is able to withdraw some of its units, replacing them with those called up from India much to the confusion and perplexity of their Carlist allies who don't know what to make of a sudden influx of brown-skinned soldiers Germany attempts to break out West once again, but the French defence lines have now become full-scale trenchlines, and the front soon degrades into trench warfare The second Winter of the war occurs, with the only major action being the French coastal bombardment of German-Italian positions in Nice and along the coastline Spring 1871 sees an attempted Franco-British assault on the Western Front, Napoleon III having grown concerned at declining French morale which was seeing only defensive actions, and no attack. This attack however breaks upon the German trenches with great loss, tho a follow-up German assault gets nowhere either Italian forces smash their way into Rome and heavy street-by-street fighting occurs against French and Papal forces, the ordinary Roman caught in between, his loyalties divided, his offers of help largely spurned by both sides The CSA declares war upon Spain (only) and despatches a fleet with marine forces to Cuba. This creates a diplomatic crisis with both France and Mexico who are revealed to have signed a secret agreement between the two of them that Cuba would be an autonomous province of Mexico under French protection. The direct involvement of the Confederacy is unwelcome and complicating Germany sends reinforcements to Nice and these succeed in breaking through and threatening Marseilles until the French fleet's bombardment of the coastal route results in their having to withdraw from lack of supplies During this whole period, much of the new German Empire remains unreconciled to its loss of independence, chief amongst them the soveriegn kingdoms of Austria, Bavaria and Hannover. Minimal compliance with Berlin, popular dissent, and the growth of underground movements have marked their co-operation in the common war effort of the empire Spring 1872 opens with a shock as Germany invades Belgium, wheeling its forces around the flanks of the Anglo-French army and rapidly over-running the coast before turning back towards Paris. Only heric resistance, and a rapid redeployment of troops allows them to hold off the Germans, but the trenchlines are abandoned, and the Germans advance West as well, finding the new Anglo-French defensive line to be in a semi-circle around the North and East of Paris The French fleet annihilates the remains of the Spanish off Ferol, and supports a landing by Carlist forces, relocating from the Basque provinces, which brings in turn a second uprising within Galicia. It is not numerically enough, and a full-scale civil war breaks out across the province Britain has been forced to make increasing use of Indian regiments, and these are soon taking their place on the Western Front, in the new trenchline running NorthWest from Paris to Dieppe Spanish forces on Cuba suffer a resounding defeat, after which the remaining Spanish units are now cast in the role of guerillas against a rebel government which takes charge in Havana. With the Franco-Mexican agreement broken by CSA involvement, the Cubans are able to play off their allies against each other and retain independence of action The full weight of the British fleet together with elite units removed previously from the conflict and retrained, lands upon the Frisian islands, and penetrates into the coastal areas. British money provides a suitable impetus for a general rising within Hannover, and as news spreads across Germany, this is copied by a general rising in Bavaria, where nationalist leaders had only been awaiting an opportunity British forces take Emden and occupy Oldenburg before advancing to unite with the Hannoverian rebels, now led by crown prince Ernest Augustus, son of the blind king, and a man whose extreme ugliness belies a subtle mind As the war passes into 1873, the Spanish front stagnates as the recovering royalists are a match for the Carlists and Indians, an uneasy alliance which is made no better by the blatant hostility of both the Carlist king and crown prince German forces complete the subjugation of Belgium, destroying those pockets that had remain viable with the assistance of British naval forces, now all deployed elsewhere. British and German armies fight over Hamburg, Bremen and Bremerhaven, wreaking great havoc, but in a front which fluctuates to and fro Bavarian rebels take control of Munich, where King Ludwig II renounces his allegiance to the Emperor and calls upon all Bavarians to rise up and support their renewed independence Berlin announces the annexation of the Bavarian Palatinate to the Prussian state German forces on the Western Front attempt to break out in the North, and towards Paris, but the Anglo-French defensive lines hold As 1873 ends, a general rising takes place in Austria, led by the king's brother Karl Ludwig Spring 1874 opens with a Danish declaration of war against Germany, and a Danish army entering Schleswig and Holstein, linking up with the British out of Hannover as the Germans fall back to establish a new defensive position French African troops arrive in Rome, ferried by the French navy, and proving an exotic sight as they bolster the defences before their commander decides to go onto the attack German forces throw themselves into one final assault on the Western front, which carries them to the walls of Paris, but no further before British, Indian, and French forces drive them back King Georg V of Hannover abdicates and his son Ernst August II announces the declaration of Hannoverian independence from the German Empire German forces fail to force their way into Munich, and suffer a number of mutinies and desertions as non-Prussian units make choices for themselves Britain appoints a civilian governor for Puerto Rico Russia declares war on Germany and invades East Prussia The German army collapses, with political declarations in Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Darmstadt, Baden and Wurttemburg adding to the chaos of Hannoverian, Bavarian and Austrian rebellion. Soon units are fighting each other, or even within each other French forces retake Nice and advance to capture Genoa as Italian forces fall back as their German allies disintegrate The commander of Italian forces in Rome surrenders when surrounded by Papal and French African forces Sicily rises up in rebellion, two days later declaring her independence Berlin sues for peace, an event which leads to chaos amongst the Spanish royalist army with her Prussian advisors. King Leopold abdicates in the name of Alphonso, son of Queen Isabella, but the Carlist King Juan III is crowned in Madrid, and most fighting ceases across the country Armistice agreed, and Peace Congress begins at The Hague Peace 1874 Denmark takes in personal union to the crown the provinces of Schleswig and Holstein Austria (remnant), Bavaria (without the Palatinate), Hannover, and Wurttemburg are reconstituted as independent kingdoms, Baden as an independent Grand Duchy/Margraviate, Hesse-Darmstadt as an independent Grand Duchy, and Hesse-Kassel as an independent Landgraviate Italy recognises the independence of the Papal State of Rome, and of the Kingdom of Sicily, and pays a substantial reparation to France and to the Pope Juan III of Spain is universally recognised, tho the start of his rule is marred by Cuban independence (under French protection) and British annexation of Puerto Rico. Violent brawls and public anger against the British Indian troops leave a sour taste to the whole campaign Germany (remnant empire) is to pay reparations to France, Belgium, Hannover, Hesse-Darmstadt, Hesse-Kassel, Baden, Wurttermburg, Bavaria and Austria Russia's annexation of Galicia and Krakow is recognised by all, tho Russia must evacuate East Prussia, but is allowed to take capital goods and ships with them in recompense Thus ends the first period 1861-1874 Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Part 2	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 946 08/12/09 01:27:57 ezOP	The End of the Century The 1870s The CSA and Mexico enter a period of increasingly hostile relations, the Cuba business having destroyed all trust France increasingly supports the Mexican Empire, and Richmond becomes estranged from Paris, relying instead upon London for all of its needs Mexico's internal state is parlous in the aftermath of the war, with no reparations, no gains and the withdrawal of CSA troops leaving the door open to rebellion and republicanism. In return for exclusive contracts, and full basing rights, France opts to supply loans and troops to Mexico, a deal with the devil that Emperor Salvador had managed to avoid so far, but which now mortgages his country to France Neither the NW Confederacy nor the (remnant) USA are doing at all well economically, European investment flooding into the CSA, and their own industries struggling to recover from civil strife, and struggling to refind markets external to themselves France pursues its larger agenda by challenging Argentina over its policies in Patagonia, and by interfering and landing forces to protect the remnant Mapuche, citing historical interest (Oriele Antoine) and a moral right. French veterans from the war in Europe soon pour into the borderland, and Paris announces the new protectorate, initiating fullscale war with Argentina and Chile 1880s War in the Balkans is an unexpected distraction from the Great Power norm, with Russia supporting Slavic ambitions and the Bulgars achieving veritable independence British and French forces arrive to "mediate" but the Khedive of Egypt has already grasped the chance. Having a substantial fleet, after his invitation of the Ottoman Vizier, made in concerns about the imminence of European war, had led to the Porte not seizing his ships, he now attempts to intervene on behalf of his nominal sovereign Britain defeats the Zulus then smashes the Boers, and subjugates the whole to imperial rule, using to do so a large number of Indian veterans from the Great War who have been deployed in theatre since Independence for Romania is agreed, as is that for the principalities of Serbia and Montenegro, whilst a new Principality of Bulgaria is agreed, being the combination of basic Bulgaria with Eastern Rumelia in independent sovereignty The Ottoman Empire is rocked by these Great Power impositions, and a movement for change grows up in many of its moist important cities Egypt emerged with agreements for the Porte to cancel some and pay off other of its debts Bankruptcy hits the NW Confederation and it petitions the CSA for annexation, which Richmond gladly agrees to. Philadelphia demands recompense, but a trade war between the enlarged CSA and the USA breaks out, fought in earnest by both sides France is able to defeat both Argentina and Chile but at great financial cost and at the requirement to recognise an independent Mapuche kingdom which France must needs support for the foreseeable future Uprising occurs in Bosnia-Hercegovina, as a result of Ottoman attempts to reimpose direct rule, including taxes. Hungary supports Istanbul, but Austrian intrigues, Serbian plots and Anglo-French rivalry for control of the situation lead to an international situation Franco-Chinese war breaks out over Napoleon III's ambitions in Indo-China, breaking apart he by-now tentative Anglo-French alliance in the Balkans (which is as much rivalry as it is allied action) and forcing Britain to agree to Hungary's compromise of an autonomous Bosnian state under Turkish control Unlike the previous example of Serbia, this is an autonomous MUSLIM state whose raison d'etre is not the destruction of the Ottomans, but rather to find a workable agreement with them France smashes China, occupying Vietnam from Cochin China through Annam to Tongking, and also seizing Hainan island and a mainland port as bases, blockading and burning Fukien and Shanghai until Peking agree Death of Napoleon III aged 80 in 1888. Accession of 32 year-old Napoleon IV 1890s Short-term rallying of the US economy, boosted by agreements with Carlist Spain, Imperial Russia, Denmark and Sweden-Norway Ohio Rebellion in the enlarged CSA put down by Confederate troops, but causing a major schism in political understanding as the poitical scene is riven in half by the implications China-Japan War breaks out, in the middle of Chinese attempts to reform their military largely with the aid of Russia and Germany Japan, with many French-built warships, fights an offensive campaign built around the recent French victory and achievessignificant early success Russia sends out a battlesquadron and cruiser squadron to reinforce the Far East, and as Japan is winning battles in the North, Russia lands at Formosa, sending troops into the interior to deal with both Imperial Chinese forces, and Japanese advance forces, whilst making alliance with the native tribes With British, French, CSA, and German warships now arriving en masse, Japan is forced to look for the best available peace. China agrees to the independence of Korea, and to recognise Japanese ownership of Okinawa, but any agreement over Formosa, or the ports that Japan has seized, is eradicated by joint European action. China has to agree to a number of concessions - ceding Formosa to Russia, Kiaochau to Britain, Port Arthur to France, and Ningpo to Germany. Japan will get nothing Norwegian Revolt occurs. Britain, France and Germany send a Neutrality Patrol to deter Swedish aggression The Philippines rises up against Spain, and a group of revolutionary leaders declare its independence The Norwegian Crisis brings about the collapse of US markets, and a gigantic depression which soon consumes 3 out of 5 citizens in poverty. Greece declares war on the Ottoman Empire over the question of a number of villages, but is soon bested in the field. A half-hearted landing on Crete with Austrian support is defeated by the arrival of a joint Egyptian-Ottoman force, and Athens is soon forced to sue for peace. Austria pretends it was never involved at all and withdraws its forces CSA, Russian, Japanese, British and French naval squadrons converge on the Philippines. The Carlist governor calls upon France and Britain to honour their treaties with Madrid, causing much confusion and soul-searching in London and Paris Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Part 3	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 947 08/12/09 01:28:42 ezOP	Regarding the North West, I think it should not be overlooked or misunderstood that the secession after the war comes after a very different war for the whole of N America. A war in which Washington falls early but the Union fights on, and which sees Confederate forces latterly bolstered by British and French would see a lot more agitation in the Old NorthWest. Events which went off half-cocked in OTL, and events of a more mainstream nature that Lincoln was able to keep the lid on with bully-boy tactics would have run away from a more beleagured Union government. With Kentucky the frontline and fully occupied, there would have been much greater agitation in Missouri, and much harsher repression as martial law would be the only way to contain things. After the peace where the CSA annexws Kentucky, things would bounce back the other way in Missouri and the anti-Union forces would come into an ascendancy against a dispirited, defeated and bankrupt Union. Their leaders would be aware that this was only temporary, but that independence offers them the chance to throw off Lincoln and his cohorts and to seize control for themselves As I said in a previous post, the idea is not that the NWC sets out to seek to join the Confederacy, but that due to its own circumstances it follows the CSA's example in seceding. In forming an immediate alignment with the CSA, and with their British and French allies, the NWC precludes a Union effort to forcibly retain them. Another thing to note about the aftermath of the war, is the severe dislocation to much of the Union. Read about the War of the Triple Alliance (more or less contemporaneous) and how afterwards the VICTORIOUS Argentine states that had housed the armies, the headquarters and built up their logistical base solely to support the offensives suffered massively when this was all over. The Union is going to be in an even worse plight - its a defeated nation, but it has the same problems on top of everything else. It is only a couple of decades later after a sharp economic downturn that I propose that the NWC and the CSA, now allies for quite a while, merge with the assumption into the Confederacy of the North-West states. It will not be seen so much as surrendering their independence to Richmond as in a merger of their joint forces. The NWC brings with it the rest of the Great Plains states up to the Rockies, territories that it has had difficulty exploiting but which under the combined state are much more likely now to be fully opened up. The NWC would also bring the results of its own independent diplomacy, including treaties with the Indian Nations that would be assumed by the CSA. This would have intriguing results of its own for the Sioux and the Nez Perce to name but two Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Part 4	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 948 08/12/09 01:29:23 ezOP	To me, a lot of alternate history is about the balance of forces. Unless one is to plot the timeline out month by month, even day by day, then a broader sweep needs to depend on a larger-scale view. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it at a more micro level, and I would certainly recommend that some parts of any timeline should focus in closely on certain important events, but in order to cover a grander sweep one needs to step back and consider how the various powers involve balance each other out, where the gaps open to exploitation are, and what advantages could come into play if the balance shifts just slightly. In some areas they will be stale-mated, equal forces abutting up against each other, not necessarily equal in strength, but equal in effect when conditions, home advantage, defence over attack, allies and logistics all are taken into account. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Regarding the aftermath of the Austro-Prussian War, I certainly think it reasonable that Britain and France would be taken to the brink of war with Germany, but due to a multitude of factors not go as far as committing to it. A European Congress is the usual method of seeking some kind of agreement, a rescuing of options from the gaping maw of conflict, and I think that the British and French, with their armies committed overseas, their navies mostly likewise, and their own lands only narrowly defended, facing an enemy triumphant in Europe and which appears to have the continent at its feet, would settle this time, and this far only, for picking up some consolations. The results of this are to ensure the independence of Hungary (with Croatia) and the Russian protectorate status of Galicia and Krakow, whilst gaining some concessions for Italy above those already intended (S Tyrol and the Trentino on top of Venetia) but at the cost of guaranteeing the Papal State in Rome This is seen by nobody as the end of things, and is probably more like the 1864 settlement where Austria and Prussia came to an agreement, but nobody expected it would last. Thus, in this context it would be seen almost as a repeat of 1864, just with different players. The momentum of events would force the rival sides towards the inevitable - when a new crisis arises, Germany cannot back down because this is the first test post-unification and it cannot afford to fail it, whilst Britain and France cannot back down for more or less the inverse of this - they cannot let Germany continue to ride roughshod over Europe. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The outbreak of a general war occurs at a moment when it is unclear who would win such a conflict, and thus as with 1914 it ensures an unexpectedly lengthy war upon the continent. Here the balance of forces really comes into play, with victories on one front at one time for one side, on another for the other, and so on. There are counter-strikes and counter-strokes, there are the opening of new fronts, the development of the war in new ways in an attempt to break the stalemate And I don't think that stalemate unreasonable. Even in the Peninsular War, the conflict was very much a long hard slog, the breaking down of a stalemate bit by bit, blow by blow until victory. The Crimean War had degenerated pretty much to that by the time it ended - true, the next year would have brought new alllies into the conflict for the British and French and brought about the collapse of the Russian position, but the actual active front had bogged itself down. The most recent examples to both sides are, however, conflicting in what they appear to show For the Germans it would seem that fast action, concentration of forces, and decisive, incisive moves is what wins wars, and wins them quickly. For the British and the French, they have seen the realities of modern siege warfare on both sides in the War of Southern Independence, and have conducted long and arduous campaigns across a broad area to eventually break down enemy resistance. These knowledge bases collide on the Western Front here, where the Germans have to learn a lesson in defence, and the British and French in turn have to learn one in prevention. Although the front fluctuates and both sides score some successes, the essential deadlock holds. The WSI has seen trench warfare develop in the sieges and defences, increasingly so as the Union bedded down for a desperate last defence. Thus, whilst often out-thought by German strategists and rushing to cover themselves, the Anglo-French have the understanding of defensive warfare that is right for this period and are able to continually plug the gaps and establish effective defensive lines to thwart German plans. Russia in this war has adopted an attitude of benevolent neutrality towards Germany, but is mainly out for what it can get. Thus, once the main armies have met in a series of titanic battle in the Western Front, Russia takes the opportunity to outright annex its protectorates of Galicia and Krakow, knowing that nobody can do more than verbally protest, if even that. Berlin is probably happy to see them go, although the attendant growth of Russia would be a worry. I think that events which confuse the participants are realistic - the influx of Indian soldiers into Carlist Spain is going to cause problems, tho not insurmountable ones considering that they come as important allies. CSA officers in Cuba are going to hate that they are allied to a black and mulatto army, many of whom are escaped slaves, but the politicians in Richmond have greater concerns than short-term racial ones. The entry of the CSA into the war against Spain is going to be unwelcome to France and Mexico, a case of affairs that seems perfectly logical to me, one prize being chased after by several nominally allied countries, two of whom have a secret agreement which excludes the third who act in ignorance of it Germany's great problem in this war is the lack of an effective fleet for anything other than coastal defence. War-time construction cannot really make that up in this period, and the hoped-for reliance on the Italians in the Mediterranean was blown apart by the French whose battlefleet has developed along very different lines. Italy is still reeling from Lissa, although it has constructed a new frontline fleet, whilst France has many actions from the WSI, the Mexican war, and the campaigns in California. Italy's strength is shown to be a mirage, and the French gain control of the Western seas. Whilst a remnant Italian, plus an Austrian force, can control the Adriatic, the entire Italian West coast is open to the French. Bringing the German fleet to battle is pretty much impossible for the British and French, but once the British decide to throw their entire naval might into amphibious operations to open a new front in East Frisia, the German fleet proves incapable of preventing them. It could come out and be destroyed, or it could remain in being. It doesn't have either the strength or the tactical ability to pose a threat to an entire taskforce. Some units no doubt CAN inflict damage and losses to British craft amongst the islands, or in the estuaries, but by this time Britain is bringing to bear overwhelming naval force, whilst her army landings are being supported by a series of risings within German states unreconciled to their forced incorporation within the Empire The German move into Belgium is a desperate attempt to turn the Anglo-French flank and break them, allowing for a descent on Paris. It only narrowly fails, but it fails at the time that British forces are uniting with Hannoverian rebels, and Bavaria and Austria are throwing off German overlordship to reclaim their independence. This is a series of blows against the Germans that send them reeling. That defeat is really on the cards is emphasised when Denmark is bold enough to declare war and move to occupy Schleswig and Holstein, an event that cannot but be interpreted as the beginning of the end for the German war effort France's use of African troops mirrors Britain's use of Indian troops, and is a sign both of the overstretch of these two empires in winning this war and of the imperial resources they are able to call upon. In addition, having fought and won on European soil, neither force, nor its political base, is going to be able to be treated as second class after the peace is signed That the Germans make one last massive push seems logical. Faced with internal uprisings, and surrounded by enemies, it would seem that only by knocking out one of their major opponents can they emerge from this in a positive light. Britain, France and Germany are all hugely over-stretched by this conflict, debts soaring, social problems manifesting at home, the economies tightly controlled but severely dislocated, and with the political will balanced on a knife edge. If the German army can take Paris then France could well implode which would force Britain to come to terms; even if these are not ideal for Germany, matters can be arranged so that they are not disastrous. But the German assault on Paris fails, and the Anglo-French hold the line. The result of this defeat is disastrous. With all efforts thrown into the attack, its failure leaves nothing in reserve to deal with the declaration of Hannoverian independence, and certainly not with the opportunistic Russian declaration of war and invasion of East Prussia. This latter is very much the final straw, and is what causes the other forcibly integrated German states to reclaim their independence and announce their withdrawal from the empire. At this the army collapses, many of its units openly mutinying, others refusing to fight those who are declaring for the newly re-independent states, and the social fabric of the empire coming apart, reflected in a mass exodus of the short-term soldier, and conscript, back to their homes. Why continue to fight a lost war and risk getting killed for nothing ? The German collapse brings about that of Italy, with the folding of the Nice front, the surrender in Rome, and a separatist rising in Sicily. The situation is even worse for Spain upon the receipt of news that Berlin has requested an armistice - the royalist army of King Leopoldo is suddenly devoid of any allies, any hope of relief, and its shortages can only get worse. In a desperate move, the generals half-engineer and half-agree to his abdication in the name of Isabella's son Alphonso, but the Carlists are too strong, and Juan III's forces are now coming together and uniting to wipe out the remaining opposition The Peace of The Hague 1874 is not the open and shut case that alternate history sometimes falls into. Berlin has over-run the Bavarian Palatinate, and Bavaria is hardly strong enough to get it back, and with the Armistice the interests of Britain and France in this matter are minute, with certainly no interest in reopening hostilities for Ludwig II's benefit. Spain is a victorious ally, with Juan III's Carlist regime, but he must open his reign by agreeing the cession of Cuba and Puerto Rico to his allies, a bitter blow made worse by the unleashing of Spanish hatred of the British Indian forces which result in a series of bloody clashes and vicious riots. Russia only gains what it already had - the annexation of Galicia and Krakow being recognised by all. Its permission to keep its plundered loot from East Prussia (what the item dealing with capital goods and shipping actually means) is hardly compensation for having brought about the collapse of Germany, and for the monies expended on the invasion in the first place. But Russia is not really in any position to argue The peace treaty leaves a German Empire but it is comprised of the North German Confederation plus the Bavarian Palatinate, the Kingdom of Bohemia, and Austrian Silesia. One can probably imagine that Bohemia saw separatist risings in the latter period of the war, but without a native dynasty (its probably got a Habsburg cadet line providing the king within the Empire) and with German at the throat of Czech, the Empire has been able to keep a lid on things, and although bloody repression continues for some years, is able to keep the kingdom within the empire. Liechtenstein would be a question here ! Ruled by a sovereign prince with large Bohemian estates, but under Austrian auspices, it may well also make a bid for independence, but when faced with losing its Bohemian lands see the prince agree to remain within the Empire, an isolated German island between Bavaria, Austria and Switzerland German reparations are going to weaken the Empire for a decade or so, but see how fast France was able to pay these off in OTL in the wake of the 1870-71 war. The biggest loss could well be the devastation to Emden, Oldenburg, Hamburg, Bremen and Bremerhaven, which leaves Germany having to rely upon its Northern, Baltic ports for commerce in the immediate future. The former will come back, but it will take time and money, and in the immediate future its clear that foreign powers will take over a lot of the trade on a permanent basis - the British blockade having created what many would have seen as a temporary change, at first I certainly envisage that the Norwegian merchant marine (of Sweden-Norway) would emerge here as a major player, whilst France and Britain would dominate world trade between them. The CSA probably also sees the development of shipping companies, probably joint ventures between Southern aristrocrats and European bankers. Portugal has probably benefitted from the war, her neutrality an act of necessity when faced with the prospect of invasion by either side, but allowing supplies to come to her, and via her into both Carlist and royalist hands during the fighting. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The break between Paris and Richmond seems natural and logical in this timeline. France has Mexico as a client empire, and can extend its power through her. The CSA on the other hand feels cheated over Cuba, fearful of growing Mexican power, and angry at emerging from the war with no formal gains. CSA officers would also add to this discontent by spreading stories of having to co-operate with black and mulatto Cubans, and even work with men who were proud to proclaim themselves as escaped slaves. The Confederacy will view itself as being duped into having co-operated so fully and having been betrayed, and it would blame France for all of this Partly for practical reasons (it needs an ally and investor) and partly because there is much less animosity towards the British, Richmond will turn increasingly to Great Britain in the wake of its estrangement from France. British capital is already a major player in the CSA, British banks and industries involved in joint ventures and expansion as the CSA develops and pushes on with industrialisation. For its part, Britain is keen to support a country seen both as a bulwark against the Union, and as a barrier against French clients and colonies. Mexico, whose internal politics are crashing in a manner very similar to those of the CSA, is supported materially by France, whose loans and manpower help to stabilise Salvador Iturbide's imperial regime. This is necessary for the Mexican Empire's survival but is something he has avoided committing himself to for as long as possible, retaining at least the pretence of independence of action that his title commands The NWC and the USA are both struggling, the former losing out to the CSA and Mexico over European investment, the latter never having yet recovered from the WSI a decade ago. France, Napoleon III's vision of both himself and his empire duly enlarged by her victory over Germany, flexes her muscles on the world stage, and chooses Argentina as her prey, a decision not completely divorced from her growing distance from Britain, for whom until now Argentina itself has been something of a client state. France does not intervene directly, merely pressing its "rights" in Patagonia, as an independent entity from Buenos Aires. With a mass of veterans available for use, and only a passing interest in really progressing the interests of the Mapuche, Paris is able to turn the putative Indian kingdom into a French colony in all but name This results in war between France on the one hand and Argentina and Chile on the other, but the combined might of the two S American powers is not enough to prevent France getting her way, and many in Buenos Aires and Santiago can only breathe a sigh of relief that events in the Balkans demand France's attention at this time, so that in victory nothing other than recognition of the protectorate is required of the defeated nations _ _ _ _ _ _ _ A knock-on butterfly has aided the Egyptians here. With Britain and France aiding the CSA in the WSI, the scope for Egyptian expansion in the cotton industry was narrowed - it still occurred but on a lesser scale, and whilst Egypt undertook a naval building programme, neither Said nor Ismail entertained quite the delusions of grandeur that would grip the country in OTL. Thus, the Ottoman representative is invited to the grand opening of the Suez Canal, and thus Istanbul does not feel slighted and see the need for the seizure of the Egyptian fleet. This latter is renewed in the early 1870s when significant units are sold to Hungary for coastal protection, and new ones ordered in their place. With less revenues and a greater apparent force on the world stage, Ismail does not bankrupt his country as per OTL, although British and French banks are encouraged by their governments to lend to him. The Balkan Crisis however puts an end to this, at least in the short-term, and Egyptian borrowing never gets beyond survivable limits. However, Egypt's role in mediation is rewarded by an Ottoman agreement to pay off and cancel a proportion of Egyptian debts. This allows for greater Egyptian stability going forward, under Ottoman suzerainty Events from the wide stretch of imperial interests combine to hit the headlines - the NWC seeks incorporation into the CSA, over the protests of the USA (Greater New England governed from Philadelpia); Britain defeats both the Zulus and the Boers, the large number of Indian veterans from the war in Europe proving vital to so doing; France defeats both Chile and Argentina but it is not cheap, and France has to recognise the independent status of the Mapuche as a price for peace. One could say that this is the price of French imperial over-stretch for no sooner has the Patagonian Question being dealt with than France is at war with the Empire of China. This goes pretty much as per OTL, except that French naval forces and marines are larger than OTL due to expansion in the various wars aforementioned. Thus, not only is Indo-China secured, but also Hainan Island seized, and Kwangchowan forced as a leased port on the mainland. Napoleon III dies aged 80 in 1888 and his 32 year old son Napoleon IV ascends the throne. One should not underestimate what the replacement of one emperor with another can do to a state where the emperor's wishes are enshrined within the constitution Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Part 5	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 949 08/12/09 01:29:51 ezOP	Early 1880s, and France's victory against Argentina and Chile has cost a lot, and peace has been agreed only with the proviso that France has a protectorate of an independent kingdom, and not a colony in Patagonia-Araucania (generally known by its former name). France's hsitorical interest in the area was based upon the proclamation by the Mapuche of Oriele Antoine as king in the 1860s. He died at the end of the 1870s, but in his will nominated an heir, and by their own trap the French are forced to recognise this heir now as King Aquiles I, something which does not please Napoleon III for by doing so he is in effect raising up a mere middleclass man to a level almost equal to his own. The Liberal press point out that that is more or less what the first Napoleon did on proclaiming himself emperor, but Napoleon III denounces this as nonsense - Napoleon I was the living embodiment of the Revolution, the Empire is Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. Aquile I is merely the beneficiary of an adventurer. But none the less, he is now king under France's protection The autonomous Bosnian principality is a state as much as mid-nineteenth century Serbia was, but the essential difference is that it is ruled by Muslims, who form the armed forces and government of the nation. It remains subject to Ottoman suzerainty, but effectively rules itself. Hungary's role is a balancing act, looking to establish her own security after independence, and keep a balance between rival powers that surround her. Russia would be in the position of a natural ally were it not for their history, the Russian invasion in 1848 that helped the Habsburgs of Vienna subjugate the Hungarian revolution. It remains essential for Budapest to not have unfriendly relations with Russia, but friendship has continued to be beyond them. Istanbul is a convenient alternative, there being no major existing rivalries, and the Ottomans needing a friendly voice of some power as much as the Hungarians need them The Sino-French War is somewhat enlarged over OTL, but mainly because Imperial France has a larger tradition of transporting troops to far-away theatres, and more warships on station around the world. This accounts for France's seizure of Hainan Island, and for the forced lease of the port of Kwangchowan This war, and its result, set the scene for the inevitable showdown between China and Japan. The former has looked to reform, and probably in this timeline has shaken off the irksome rule of the Dragon Empress and given real power to the Emperor who brings in Russian and German (mainly Prussian of course) advisors to help reform the military. But not enough time elapses between the one conflict and the next for these reforms to bed in Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Part 6	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 950 08/12/09 01:30:49 ezOP	France's fighting both Argentina and Chile over Patagonia-Araucania at the end of the 1870s into the 1880s, means that there is no War of The Pacific. Thus, Bolivia retains its coastal province, and Peru its Southernmost province. Britain probably intervenes directly in Bolivia to ensure the safety of its community and the operation of its commercial enterprises. Chile's defeat leaves it much weaker than in OTL, and much less of a threat to its neighbours. It has to focus on its own recovery. Meanwhile the nitrate trade around Antofagasta remains on Bolivian territory, though in British hands after they took over the direct running during the recent crisis. What it means for Peru is also worth considering Now, I have been thinking a lot about South America, and realise that with possession of Cuba, Imperial France is going to be in the forefront of the abolition of the slave trade. In the short run this will bring them into conflict with Brazilian aims, but in the longer run, France is going to support the Brazilian Empire in its own abolition of slavery, and with France having Cuba, a protectorate in Patagonia-Araucania and a greater naval presence in the S Atlantic, any military coup against the Emperor in Brazil is likely to be just a failed uprising As for a map, I really am crap at those ! I don't know how other people do it, but I just don't know how to do it digitally Not really sure how there is "convergence" in this timeline, since there are always 2 factors at work in history -1- underlying economic and social forces, -2- events which occur independent of a timeline but impinge on it Best Regards Grey Wolf
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miketr		#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 581 08/12/09 05:52:20	With the Großdeutschland solution in place why the heck would Bismarck push for war with France over the Spanish Throne? The thing that seperated Bismarck from most other conquerors is he knew when to quit. Also he was a very skilled diplomate and was able to read things very well. I don't see him creating such a mess as occured here. There were a number of key elements that caused trench warfare to occur in 1914-1918. 1) VERY high troop density and a willingness for oneside to dig in. You saw this outside of the Richmond VA in the ACW and a few other areas but only around specific targets that one side wanted to defend and the other couldn't manuver around. 2) The Machine gun which acted as a force multiplier. Without these two elements I don't see trench lines across all of Europe... Key cities or locations sure but not hundreds of miles of them. Interesting otherwise. Glad to see you writting again. Michael Just my $0.02 worth
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TomB1	Preliminary comments	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3022 08/12/09 22:27:21 Administrator	Lot to digest here. There is one clear typo/mental error where you say that the CSA wants an Eastern coastline presence---you mean Western. CSA California is kinda interesting though. What exactly is driving this NW Confederacy? The usual Union disintegrates cliche is Deseret. Is this a variation on that? Lets see Bismarck the architect of the Kulturkampf anschluses overwhelmingly Catholic Austria? The war is interesting though in addition to the points Mike raises barbed wire (invented in 1870's) and the hydropneumatic long recoil field gun firing shrapnl shells also contributed. Tom
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resurrection wolf	Problems	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 951 08/13/09 00:51:51 ezOP	Thanks...not really sure what to do about all the problems high-lighted... Sometimes I hate history - I can never know enough to get anything right I'll post the NW update here anyway Sorry about "Eastern coast" but my brain goes weird, thinking you see California is on the Eastern coast of the Pacific, so its an Eastern coast Anyway, oops Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Old North-West	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 952 08/13/09 00:52:11 ezOP	OK, now I will shamelessly reproduce a list of facts that come from a "What If America" chapter. This list of facts comes with no interpretation from the author, and is used as the preamble to the rest of the "North-West Conspiracy" chapter. Now, before I do this, I will point out that none of the timeline I have written needs or requires or even uses any of this Conspiracy. Only the underlying facts, tensions and battleground that existed for it to be wrought on in OTL is of relevance here. And none of that is, as far as I know, open to challenge. - - Clement Vallandigham, Ohio Congressman, arrested 1863 by General Burnside for supposedly making treasonous speeches, tried before a military tribunal where the federal judge advocate general controlled the case (acting as judge as well as prosecutor) and barred defence witnesses, ruled out testimony etc. Sentenced to imprisonment for treason but deported to the CSA - - Indiana and Kentucky became Republican military dictatorships with manipulated elections and terror tactics used to retain political control (see below) - - Some quotes from Thomas Fleming, the author "By 1864 the Democrats of Kentucky and Indiana were a seething mass of rage in search of a target" "If the Confederacy had made a general with the driving energy of James Longstreet or A P Hill commander in the West, Kentucky would have become a Confederate state - along with Tennessee" - - 21st July 1862 Union general Jerry T Boyle threatened to arrest any Democrat who ran for office in Kentucky against the administration's slate - - Republicans carried Kentucky in the 1862 midterm elections by stationing troops around polling stations, where in an era before secret ballots their commanders informed Democrats that they could not guarantee their safety if they were to vote, thus leading to many turning away without voting, or not bothering to turn up at all - - Democratic Convention at Frankfort February 1863, Colonel Gilbert marched the 44th Ohio into the meeting hall and dispersed the assembly at bayonet point - - 17 pro-Democratic newspapers in Kentucky were smashed up by mobs, whilst soldiers either joined in or watched with approval - - Former governor and federal congressman John Morehead protested these tactics and was arrested and held without trial in federal prisons, subject to verbal abuse and semi-starvation until he pledged allegiance - - Indiana - Democrats won control of the state legislature in 1862 elections, and would have refused to vote for the war budget. The Republican governor Oliver P Morton suspended the legislature and ran the state by decree for the rest of the war, using money Lincoln shipped to him from DC - - The Indianapolis stat convention in Spring 1863 saw the meeting site surrounded by infantry and artillery with cannons trained on the speakers' platform. Cavalry roved the town and the state arsenal was under heavy guard. When Democratic speakers tried to speak they were interrupted and insulted by soldiers and Republicans seeded in the crowd, and when Democrats attempted to remove these they were themselves arrested and hustled off to jail. Cavalry yelling like demons circled around, frightening those on the periphery. Then when US senator Thomas Hendricks attempted to speak, 8-10 soldiers with bayonets fixed and a detachment of cavalry with sabres drawn closed in on the platform. Hendricks abandoned the platform, and the crowd dispersed in panic - - Summer of 1864 a guerilla war raged in Kentucky, which General Stephen Burbridge used terror tactics to suppress, murdering 4 Confederate prisoners for every one Union soldier or sympathiser killed by the rebels - - "The war had generated a strong sense of separate identity throughout the MidWest. There was a widespread opinion that the two original sections of the country were jointly responsible for the ruinous conflict, with most of the blame cast on New England" And that is without going into the response in these states to the Emancipation Proclamation - - - - - - - The War of Southern Independence as outlined in this alternae timeline will have seen some significant differences. I am afraid that people don't factor this in. The above list is what DID happen in OTL, even with the factors that existed then. Add in to that mix the early fall of Washington DC, a Union which determines to go on fighting, a later alliance with France and Britain and the use of their forces in the continent, and the occupation of frontier states during the war by Confederate states and allies. I would imagine that Lincoln, the Union army and the Republican party machine use even heavier handed tactics to hold onto, and hold down the rest of the old North-West. With Confederate raids, the attempted risings in place by Confederate sympathisers, and a general state of martial law and military rule, the stage would be well set The defeat of the Union at the siege of Philadelphia is going to cut loose all Union-supported endeavours. Money from the centre will disappear, the armies will break apart, old vengeances will be acted out, and the forces long suppressed during the war will breathe in fresh air and break out on their own. Many a neutral, or even dispirited supporter of a failed Union, would look at North-West independence as a natural reaction. The war has shown that they are different, all that the federal government did was suppress them, and stamp on state's rights, and now they have a chance to make their lives anew The states right aspect of this should not be overlooked. Indiana, Illinois wanted to run things as states first, part of the Union second, so in creating their own Confederacy in the image of the CSA they give back power to where they want it to belong. In the short term this is a successful move, empowering the people and enthusing them. In the longer term it leads to a weakened economic state that eventually leads to the NWC requesting assumption into the Confederacy Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Slavery and the CSA	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 953 08/13/09 06:10:58 ezOP	Slavery and the CSA A distinction immediately needs to be made between what is enacted at confederal level in Richmond, and what is within the states' rights and would be left to the states to decide. Where the line blurs, the former can seek to influence the latter, most effectively through positive coercion, such as in subsidies and promises. As part of the agreement with Britain and France to send troops, supplies etc to aid the Confederacy, Richmond probably promises not to extend slavery into states where it does not exist, and to work to prevent all forms of international slave trading, including using CSA navy assets to prevent smuggling Later, during the 1870s the Confederate government probably agrees to ban all inter-state slave trading, meanig that slaves can only be bought and sold within the state they live in Beyond this it is down to the states themselves, although Richmond can push policies and reward those who accept them. I would think the twin approach would be -1- States declaring that nobody will be born into slavery, and that henceforth any child born to a slave will be free -2- Compensated manumission Where there is reluctance, often borne of financial fears, the Confederate government can promise aid to pay for dealing with the children, and grants for manumission. Whilst what the confederal government agrees to do is carried out pretty uniformly, and exceptions to this are dealt with by the force of arms, or of law, the actions of the states would be more patchy, with some way ahead of others, and the dragging effects of slavery would still be in existence in the 1890s By then most states, if not all, would have decreed that nobody would be born into slavery, and manumission programmes would be in place. Some states would be almost slave free, whilst others would be the reverse, with only a small percentage of freedmen, even if all newborns are now no longer growing up to be slaves. Some states will have banned any sale at all of remaining slaves, whilst in others slave markets, perhaps not as thriving as in their heyday, would still remain Best regards Grey Wolf
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TomB1	It's the Midwest	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3023 08/13/09 18:48:15 Administrator	OK the NW Confederacy is what we have been calling the Midwest for over a century now. Are you incl. Ohio in it?
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resurrection wolf	Reply to Tom	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 954 08/14/09 00:23:41 ezOP	(Yuku not always attaching replies to the right bit IIRC) Ohio is part of it, though less willing, and somewhere in the timeline there is an Ohio War I put in They still thought of themselves as the Old North-West at this period, from what I've read, probably because to the West of them was Indian country, and Territories rather than states Best Regards Grey Wolf
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resurrection wolf	Solving The German Problem	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 955 08/14/09 00:24:09 ezOP	Solving the German Problem How about this as a summary ;- -- Prussian/ N German forces take Vienna -- Hungary rises up in rebellion -- Bismarck gets the Prussian King to turn the NGC into the German Empire -- The German Empire absorbs some of he defeated German states as sovereign states of the empire -- A Southern Confederation is formed under German control -- This SC includes Austria, Bavaria, Bohemia, Baden, Wurttemberg and Hesse-Darmstadt -- The German Empire has basing rights at Trieste, and Austria has to cede half her navy The Congress confirms, as well as :- -- S Tyrol and Trentino to Italy -- Recognition of Hungarian independence -- Russia gets Galicia and Krakow as protectorates -- Confirmation of the Papal State in Rome -1- I realise Wilhelm I may be a problem, but if the generals, including Wilhelm's nephews, and the Crown Prince back the plan, then the old king can be won round -2- Russia accepts Hungarian independence for the Polish protectorates, being more concerned about Polish independence than about that of Hungary -3- Britain and France look to strengthen those who are not Germany, so Italy, Hungary come off better, and the acceptance of Russia's protectorates is seen as a small gain, even if neither is that happy to see Russian aggrandisement The Spanish Crisis thus in some ways mirrors OTL's rather more, tho with the added aspect of the nascent Empire needing not to prove itself weak. The eclipse of Austria and its involvement in the German sphere makes even a stronger France, allied to Britain still, very wary over encirclement, especially as Italy was allied with Prussia in 1866 The later collapse of the German alliance can be seen in these terms. Hannover is a kingdom within the Empire, whilst Bavaria and Austria are kingdoms in the Southern Confederation, in close alliance (subservience to) the Empire In the peace, the Empire loses Hannover and Hesse-Kassel, but gains the Bavarian Palatinate since nobody is willing to restart the war for Ludwig II's sake Bohemia may see some sort of German coup, keeping down the Czechs and supported by Berlin, keeping Bohemia a satellite even as the other German states break away from Berlin Best Regards Grey Wolf
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TomB1	Northwest vs Midwest	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3024 08/14/09 17:59:10 Administrator	Your name was not an error, it just threw me because I was thinking from the 20th (and 21st) century nomenclature.
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TomB1	State by State Approach	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3025 08/14/09 18:04:12 Administrator	The cliche in CSA TL is for some sort of top down solution while given the nature of the beastie it is much more likely that it would evolve state by state.
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Southern Glory, American Fury	08/12/09 01:26:37	resurrection wolf
Part 2	08/12/09 01:27:57	resurrection wolf
Part 3	08/12/09 01:28:42	resurrection wolf
Part 4	08/12/09 01:29:23	resurrection wolf
Part 5	08/12/09 01:29:51	resurrection wolf
Part 6	08/12/09 01:30:49	resurrection wolf
Re: Southern Glory, American Fury	08/12/09 05:52:20	miketr
Preliminary comments	08/12/09 22:27:21	TomB1
Problems	08/13/09 00:51:51	resurrection wolf
Old North-West	08/13/09 00:52:11	resurrection wolf
It's the Midwest	08/13/09 18:48:15	TomB1
Slavery and the CSA	08/13/09 06:10:58	resurrection wolf
State by State Approach	08/14/09 18:04:12	TomB1
Reply to Tom	08/14/09 00:23:41	resurrection wolf
Northwest vs Midwest	08/14/09 17:59:10	TomB1
Solving The German Problem	08/14/09 00:24:09	resurrection wolf